Proper Course, Proper Rules

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Proper Course, Proper Rules

Postby Hans Zinnemann » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:16 pm

Apologies to everyone for starting a new thread but try as I did I could not get my browser to reply to the start line/rules thread.

I am all in favour of using the rules as much as possible to make SL sailing a richer environment (as most other veteran sailors seem to agree).

I wanted to respond with my perspective on Armchair's view of my understanding of the rules in the Tako Cup. I did not see much point in raising this at the time because I did not want to seem like I was sore at Armchair's victory (I am not, he is a superb sailor). Now that we are discussing implementing rules it seems like a helpful time to do so respond.

Armchair wrote:

"The following statements have an apology to Hans attached, LOL. The Tako Cup finals was a bit of dissapointment, because Hans misunderstood the leeward ROW rule, that Jane has mentioned above: 3. If two boats are parallel and overlapped, the Lee boat can call UP UP and force the windward boat to give ROW. The Lee boat can only luff the windward boat to zero degrees apparent ( in other words, she can't make the windward boat actually tack). However, this is probably the most powerful tactical weapon a skipper has on the first leg off the SYC line. If you are lee and slightly behind the lead boat after the start, you'll lose ground unless you think fast and do something. Therefore I was able to use that misunderstanding to position myself to have a better start, but this ended up in collisions a fair amount, and thus I was forced to protest."


I am very aware of the Windward rule (how can you not be, it is one of the most basic rules int he book).

My view was and still is that because I was sailing hard on the wind and had overlap Armchair was forbidden from forcing me to sail higher than possible by ISAF rule 17.1:

"If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat."


The definition of a proper course is one that Armchair would have sailed if I had not been there. He would not have sailed at less than 34 degrees if I had not been there. A proper course cannot be at zero degrees.

If he had wanted to luff me the time to do that was BEFORE I had overlap, now WHEN I had overlap.

If one of the boats in our fleet in RL deliberately sailed at 25 degrees to the wind in consecutive races, crashing into the boat alongside and then protested the boat they hit causing them to be repeatedly disqualified they would not have been popular.

If my interpretation of rule 17 is wrong then I am very happy to be corrected by anyone.

Let me emphasise that I have no hard feelings towards Armchair, I just raise this to say that when implementing the rules let's abide by them all, not just 5 or 6 of them.[/b]
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Rules Discussion Warning

Postby MarkTwain White » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:23 pm

Hans Zinnemann wrote:Apologies to everyone for starting a new thread but try as I did I could not get my browser to reply to the start line/rules thread.

I am all in favor of using the rules as much as possible to make SL sailing a richer environment (as most other veteran sailors seem to agree). <snip>

If my interpretation of rule 17 is wrong then I am very happy to be corrected by anyone.

Let me emphasise that I have no hard feelings towards Armchair, I just raise this to say that when implementing the rules let's abide by them all, not just 5 or 6 of them.[/b]


There are a number of us in SL sailing that love the concept of sailing with the full rulebook. Hans, Armchair and I are among them. However, there are even larger numbers of SL skippers who are not so comfortable sailing with all the rules, or at least all the rules we can reasonable rule on given the enviroment we sail in in SL (ie. am I REALLY overlapped, or am I a boat length behind?).

At SYC we have for the great majority of our history sailed with only a subset of the rules, and I believe that that has been good for the community. It has helped us grow.

However the community has matured and it may well be time to form some all rules racing.

For those of you that don't care to use the full rule book, that's fine. But for those of us that DO love sailing by the rules, we will always have discussions like Hans is starting here. I call upon all you who don't love sailing by all the rules and enjoying the tactical possibilities such sailing brings, PLEASE refrain from telling us in the ensuing discussion here how you are against using all the rules. Yes, we know all the reasons you don't want to use the rules. And as you must admit all current racing in SL follows the limited or, for all intents and purposes, total lack of rules enforcement. So the current field is yours, so to speak. But there are some of us that dream some day of a race series for the serious SL sailors who keep a copy of the rules on their bedstands, or at least in the john/head/loo.

Hans, Armrchair. Have at it. We need some good rules discussions. And for the unintiated. Rules discussions can be andrelin producing. If it makes you uncomforable, just "change the channel". :lol:
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Postby ZATZAi Asturias » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:28 pm

Perhaps a seperate race series to prop up the all-rules idea? I admit I don't know all the rules myself but in any sport it can be fun to watch those who are very tight with the rules try to out strategize each other. In other words, that could be fun to watch.
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Postby Alain Gloster » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:06 pm

I don't mind the concept of all rules racing - I prefer that to playing bumper cars.
My worry is the ISAF rules assume everyone sees the same thing in the same way.
A couple of cases...
    In one recent race, the other boats position kept flickering between 2 lengths in front to right next to me - I actually won the race becasue I flickered in front of him..neither he nor I ever saw us overlapped - that seems to be pretty common behaviour for SL

    In a Fizz Cup race I was helping Bea with, it looked like two boats turned inside the mark and two boats didn't. Bea saw them all round the mark


Allowance should be made for the way SL presents things. In the case Hans brought up - I can see his point and can't think of when SL would throw you on a different course (maybe sim corssings?), so I'd assume 17.1 was worth implementing (actually I assumed it was implemented all this time)
Maybe time for a review of which rules are appropriate?
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Re: Proper Course, Proper Rules

Postby Stuart Choche » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:12 am

Hans Zinnemann wrote:My view was and still is that because I was sailing hard on the wind and had overlap Armchair was forbidden from forcing me to sail higher than possible by ISAF rule 17.1


17.1 is very tricky; therefore I think they change it constantly :-)

Rules 10 & following says very clearly the lee yacht when overlapping is allowed to force the windward boat into the wind to keep clear wind (thats the intention of all this rules).

The difference to rule 17 is, that the lee yacht is coming from astern to an overlapping; after she has overlapped, she might not sail higher than her propper course.
17.1 is mostly the case when sailing downwinds - when a gust is squeezing the fleet together and wash those backbenchers to the front ;-) They overlap, notice that they have not enough momentum to go through the wind shadow, try to luff for overtaking and...bang into the stern or rudder of the windward victim, because they now have lots of momentum they can handle....lol. Rule 17 is very well adopted from practical sailing....

The ROW here (as well what Jane watched at the Liv/Oly-story) depends on a situation that has happened in the past - very tricky, very hard to decide.

Anyway: I agree with Hans and MTW, that, in cases of doubt, we should apply the intire rule book. And I appeal to all to follow Oly's example doing their penalty - even in doubt.


cheers

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Postby M1sha Dallin » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:52 am

The Tako Cup races were a long tie ago so some of the details of the events and calls are a little fuzzy in my memory. A few comments come to mind:

(a) Rule 17.1 was not declared as in force for the Tako Cup. Although since both skippers know of it they might be expected to follow it (or at least its spirit since determining whether a boat is sailing above its proper course in SL is not easy)

(b) Rule 17 .1 applies where the overlap is gained to leeward by the overtaking boat. i.e. if it was the windward boat that was overtaking within 2 boat lengths then 17.1 does not apply. The leeward boat may luff until the windward boat manages to break the overlap. From memory this was the situation that applied in the Tako Cup final - certainly in the instances I could see from the platform above the yacht club.

(c) The proper course applies to the leeward boat (There may be subtle variations where the windward boat is at 34 and the leeward is still at 35). Note this last point will be important in mixed fleet racing. The Tako and Fizz have very different characteristics to windward. It would also have some interesting consequences in Fizz racing - Optimum VMG is at about 51 degrees true, but the sails would not be backing until 45 degrees true (or maybe less).
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Postby Liv Leigh » Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:28 am

I've been testing the Fizz extensively in fixed wind conditions. I don't think I agree with the optimum you found M1 ;)
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Postby M1sha Dallin » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:52 am

I don't think I agree with the optimum you found M1

I did say about :) - but for the purpose of this discussion the important point is that the Fizz has a significantly lower point of sailing (on a beat) than the Tako (at 35) or the ACA32 (where I would argue a proper course at up to 20). It also has a fairly slow fall-off from the point of optimum VMG (unlike the Tako: 35 is go; 34 is slow)
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Re: Proper Course, Proper Rules

Postby Jane Fossett » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:55 am

Hans Zinnemann wrote:... If my interpretation of rule 17 is wrong then I am very happy to be corrected by anyone. ...

On September 25 2007, MarkTwain White wrote: ... As I am sure we all have observed, many in the SL sailing community still struggle with even the simpliest of racing rules (rules 10 and 11). Can you imagine what it would be like out there if we introduced "proper course" into our rule set? That is a major reason we have not used Rule 17 as one of our LIMITED number of protestable rules at SYC, ACA-SL Cup, and Tako Cup.
The mosted heated arguments I have heard about the rules in RL are over the question of "proper course". On the one hand I am excited that there are skippers who are attempting to learn the rules and some of the subtleties involved. On the other hand I fear that the discussion of such fine points only serves to increase fear in the minds of those we are trying to nurture into learning the basic rules we DO use. Not a put down at all for asking, but just a note to others, don't sweat it. It's not in play in SL racing for the large part.
That having been said, if I were sailing in SL race which used the full rule book and gained a leeward overlap I have the right to call UP (or COME UP) and can protest a boat who fails to comply as long as:
1) I give the other boat time to respond, and...
2) I dont force the other boat past head to wind. (These two points are in the rules as well but i am not taking time to look them up.
...

As one of the judges for the TC2007 Finals, I thought the issues were pretty clear. Rule 17 was not part of the Tako Cup Ruleset.
I don't think this was an obscure point. In the weeks prior to the TC2007 Final, there was a lengthy and loud discussion in M1sha Dallin's thread about Rule 17, about leeward rights, and about other issues as they apply to SL racing. MTW's comments on Rule 17 above seemed pretty clear.

I'm emphasizing it again here because, to my understanding, Rule 17 wont be enforced in the World Fizz Cup 2008 Finals this Sunday, either.

We may want to change the Ruleset for future races, however! After all, they're just Rules... and the closer we get to the RL ISF ruleset the better.
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Postby Armchair Binder » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:47 pm

Points to clarify (hopefully) ; LOLOL

1) There is no proper course before the starting gun.

Here is an excerpt from this link ( http://www.sailingworld.com/from-the-ex ... 01381.html ) "because boats do not have a proper course before the starting signal, Rule 17, which requires a boat not to sail above or below her proper course under certain circumstances, doesn’t apply"


Another quote from this link, ( http://www.sfsailing.com/cgi-bin/articl ... apter5.cfm ); "5.1 Luffing at Starts

As written, the luffing rules are the same before starts as they are during the race. In practice there are differences, as there is no proper course before the start.

Here is how the luffing rules work:

The leeward boat has right of way (Rule 11) and may luff as she pleases, limited only by the need to give the windward boat room to keep clear (Rule 16).

If the leeward boat established her overlap from astern, then after the starting signal, she shall not sail above her proper course (Rule 17.1).

If the windward boat established the overlap from astern, or if the leeward boat tacked into the overlap, then she may luff and continue to sail above her proper course regardless of the starting signal. (Why she would want to is another question.)

When you find yourself as a windward boat in a luffing situation, the definition of keep clear requires that you respond promptly to a luff. Head up as far and as fast as possible or necessary. Failure to respond to a luff will likely result in disqualification. "



2) Concerning fairly equal sailors; proper course will almost never come into play going upwind. Why: because it would come into play when a leeward boat gains overlap from being clear behind. This is almost never going to happen because of windshadowing, the leeward boat would slow down before getting close to gaining an overlap

In SL, a windward boat from behind, can become overlapped with a leeward boat that is sailing slower. The windward boat should expect to be luffed to wind=0; this is the only defense that the leeward boat has from getting windshadowed. On the first leg after an upwind start (typical starting scenario), if the windward boat gains a windward overlap on a slower leeward boat , the leeward boat can luff the windward boat to wind=0 to encourage the wndward boat to tack away.
In RL, this would be very uncommon because of turbulent air coming from the leeward boat that would slow the windward boat down. Here is a picture and a quote about the lee bow wind effect from this link ( http://www.uiowa.edu/~sail/skills/racin ... hap4.shtml ), "The backwind zone is the lighter area to windward of the boat in figure 21. You'll notice this area extends much further than the blanket zone. That is what makes it so dangerous. Its effect is slightly smaller, but the area through which you must sail is much larger. The wind will be reduced here"

Image

PS: M1sha's recollection was the same version as mine.

The creation of the Lee Bow backwinding effect would be a great stride forward in SL sailing, it would create sailing scenarios that would be more dynamic and interesting. I tried to get Kanker to create the Lee Bow wind effect but I don't think he understood; if a new Fizz wish list is created this will be my desire.
:wink: [/b]
Last edited by Armchair Binder on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Getting real(er)

Postby Toru Bracken » Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:43 pm

Great to see this thread still running.

Now we seem to have a common view of the windward boat rule, I'll take the opportunty to second Armchair's call for lee bow effect in a future Fizz mod. It's such an important part of upwind tactics in RL sailing.

Of course this and windshadowing would be a lot more interesting in SL racing if we could manage to find a few courses which consist of more than two tacks upwind (and dare I even say an upwind finish too)!

With all this enthusiasm about rules, maybe we could relaunch the idea of some three boat team racing.

Mothgirl - any chance of a special Fizz-lite version with the same great sailing dynamics, but without the skiff planing speed boost? It'd be great for team racing.

So demanding....

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UP UP UP to 0 wind

Postby Epicurus Emmons » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:42 am

In SL, a windward boat from behind, can become overlapped with a leeward boat that is sailing slower. The windward boat should expect to be luffed to wind=0; this is the only defense that the leeward boat has from getting windshadowed. On the first leg after an upwind start (typical starting scenario), if the windward boat gains a windward overlap on a slower leeward boat , the leeward boat can luff the windward boat to wind=0 to encourage the wndward boat to tack away.


The question is do we want 2 boats dead in the water? In the ACA final these rules worked in match racing without to many protests. But its not my cup of tea i am afraid. Perhaps for the connoisseurs? Although both Arm and Hans are experts, so what can we expect from the lesser Gods if even they cant agree on the rule book.

By the way I think all protests should be dealt with after all the race laps so the public dont have to suffer to much during races :)

Also I would like to add that in all Skutsjesilen events (without the messy and unpredictable wind shadow) nobody has protested so far and all had great fun :D

Come to think of it, it may be necessarily to have different rules for different boats. For the Skutsje I would say that if your sailing hard to the wind 35 or 36 degree, you can't be luffed up by a leeward boat. (you can be asked to give room/ tack at obstructions/ EOW situations) The leeward boat does not have to be afraid for wind shadow :)
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Postby Armchair Binder » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:52 am

Having the ability of a leeward boat to luff to wind=0 is important for a few reasons.

1) Before the start, boats often try to get a good position for the starting line, thus luffing (wind=0), is a common practice, and important for positioning.

2) In SL: On the first leg of the race, a leeward boat that does not have the ability to luff (wind=0) a windward boat to encourage that windward boat to tack, would be forced to sail in a boring parade, waiting for the windward boat to decide to tack. This is often the case with many boats being leeward of each other, and they often play "follow-the-leader" to the first mark, and beyond.

3) When different boats race against each other (ex: Fizz/ Taco/Trudeau), those boats have a different optimal upwind/downwind angles to the wind, creating proper course (rule 17) confusion.

4) Situations where proper course (rule 17) comes into play and boats would not be able to luff another boat up beyond it's optimal wind angle, don't happen very much. So, in order to keep things simple, just keep in mind the rule of WINDWARD-LEEWARD. When boats are overlapped on the same tack, the windward boat must keep clear. (Rule 11) . A leeward boat is leeward all the way up to wind=0, no matter what boat you are sailing.
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Proper course

Postby Epicurus Emmons » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:28 am

The problem of a leeward boat luffing a windward boat to 0 degrees of wind, seemed undesirable to me. So I turned my investigation to a race that has been in place for hundreds of years. I thought they must have solved that for us. So I downloaded the rules for Skutsjesilen 2008.

And there it was staring me in the face. Art. 14.1

"The leeward Skutsje is only allowed to sail above its proper course, if it is luffing to tack"

And in the definitions it is stated: "Proper course is any course that a Skutsje would sail to complete the course as fast as possible"

So perhaps we can race with ISAF rules and with Skutsjesilen rule 14.1. That would save a lot of problems and would still have a official side to it :)
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Postby Liv Leigh » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:55 am

the rule of luffing to 0 degrees of wind may seem undesirable, it's also an unlikely thing to happen. if you are on leeward and luff to 0 degrees of wind, you will grind to a halt yourself, 2-3-4 boats will come up from behind and pass you on leeward.

so applying this rule to this extend won't be an issue. using it in a race is often a form or suicide in sl.
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