Should we allow hitting race marks?

The place for discussions about SL and RL sailing, grid-happenings, and other topics of general interest.

Should we allow hitting race marks?

Postby Armchair Binder » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:54 am

In the past I had raced remote control boats, where the rules were amended to allow hitting of the racing marks. Hitting of the marks usually caused substantial loss of speed and placement, so you were crazy to hit the marks. Hitting the marks is usually a self-policing infraction, because most time the incident is not in view of anyone else to see. Being a self-policing infraction means that people usually don't do any kind of penalty circle, and this seems to be the case within most SL races. With the other boat crossing situations, there usually is someone pointing out the infraction as a "Starboard" warning, or a "Protest". So, I personally would like to see the allowance of hitting the marks. Since touching the marks in SL seems to have great consequences in speed.

PS: In RL sailing where the marks are usually small inflatable buoys and the wind was very light and/or opposing current, we have on occasion, opted to hit/GRAB the mark, walk it down the boat to the stern and let it pass behind the boat, and do the penalty circle while going down current. LOLOL
Armchair Binder
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:07 pm
Location: Sailing along the EOW

Postby Liv Leigh » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:10 am

I agree with AC that hitting the mark is (almost) never a benefit. We were doing a few fun races with Surf's mirror dinghy this afternoon. I hit the blue mark on Olympic course and got bounced back at least 10 meters. Then I hit it again. :P I wanted to do a 720 turn just before the finish line but I hit that early as well... Joepie and Taku can confirm it didn't give me any advantage in the race.. ;)
User avatar
Liv Leigh
 
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:21 pm
Location: Sala-Y-Gomez

Postby Armchair Binder » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:46 am

Since the practice of exonerating ones' self from hitting a mark is never practiced during everyday races, there could easily be a misunderstanding as if the starting or finishing marks are marks that require a 360. If everyone is ignoring the mark hitting rule, then there may be a need to amend the SL rules to exclude that rule. Can you imagine hitting a mark in SL, bouncing back, then doing a 360 on a slow turning boat, might as well withdraw from the race at that point.
Armchair Binder
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:07 pm
Location: Sailing along the EOW

Postby Surfwidow Beaumont » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:06 pm

boats that hit marks are penalised enough x)))
Second Life Sailing Film Crew
Video Channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/SecondLifeSailing
Alternate Link when YT plays silly buggers
http://surfwidow.blip.tv/#1714779
Blog
http://surfwidowsweb.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Surfwidow Beaumont
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:18 am
Location: good ol blighty (UK)

Postby Svar Beckersted » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:03 pm

Since the buoys in SL act just like the shoreline and hitting them will cause the boat to slow without moving unlike a RL buoy which anchored to the bottom will just move aside, I say we remove that rule from further SL racing competition.

The act of hitting the buoy is a penalty in itself.
Svar Beckersted
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:48 pm
Location: China Lake, Ca

Re: Should we allow hitting race marks?

Postby MarkTwain White » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:54 pm

Armchair Binder wrote:". So, I personally would like to see the allowance of hitting the marks. Since touching the marks in SL seems to have great consequences in speed.


A couple of years ago I made this identical argument for SL racing, namely hitting a mark in SL is penalty enough. I was ignored. Can you imagine that? It took me months to get up the courage to post again after that. :cry:

And if you believe that I have this bridge to sell you. :wink:

Anyway, I concur with all the points made in this topic regarding the elimination of penalty for hitting the mark. It is indeed enough of a penalty in and of itself. I encouage all RDs at SYC and elsewhere to adopt this policy. 8)
SIM PRESERVATION PROJECT -- http://simpreservation.com
User avatar
MarkTwain White
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:20 pm
Location: Starboards Yacht Club

hitting

Postby Epicurus Emmons » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:21 am

Agreed. RD's at FIYC don't use that rule anyway.
Epicurus Emmons
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:18 am
Location: Netherlands

Postby Liv Leigh » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:24 am

Funny how this discussion suddenly comes up now. We've been using this rule for 6 weeks in the Fizz Cup and had several DQ's because of this. No one ever argued the use of this rule before.
User avatar
Liv Leigh
 
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:21 pm
Location: Sala-Y-Gomez

Re: Should we allow hitting race marks?

Postby Surfwidow Beaumont » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:40 am

MarkTwain White wrote:
Armchair Binder wrote:". So, I personally would like to see the allowance of hitting the marks. Since touching the marks in SL seems to have great consequences in speed.


It took me months to get up the courage to post again after that. :cry:

And if you believe that I have this bridge to sell you. :wink:

8)


Mark and courage - i am sure you got to oz before the lion and the tinman
i thought i was seeing things for a moment there - few Mark that was a worrying fright you gave me then there LOL
dont do that to me :P @_@
Second Life Sailing Film Crew
Video Channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/SecondLifeSailing
Alternate Link when YT plays silly buggers
http://surfwidow.blip.tv/#1714779
Blog
http://surfwidowsweb.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Surfwidow Beaumont
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:18 am
Location: good ol blighty (UK)

Re: Should we allow hitting race marks?

Postby Jane Fossett » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:08 am

MarkTwain White wrote:
Armchair Binder wrote:". So, I personally would like to see the allowance of hitting the marks. Since touching the marks in SL seems to have great consequences in speed.

A couple of years ago I made this identical argument for SL racing, namely hitting a mark in SL is penalty enough. I was ignored. Can you imagine that? It took me months to get up the courage to post again after that. :cry:
And if you believe that I have this bridge to sell you. :wink:
Anyway, I concur with all the points made in this topic regarding the elimination of penalty for hitting the mark. It is indeed enough of a penalty in and of itself. I encouage all RDs at SYC and elsewhere to adopt this policy. 8)


I mostly race big Big Boats in SL, where the issue of rounding a mark without scraping your hull on something is indeed a constant challenge.

In principle I agree with ISAF: I think Rule 31* is part of Sailboat Racing skill. Why would we drop it? Don't tell me that SL sailors are penalized enough because they lose speed... I mean in RL racing if you hit a fixed navigational buoy that's used as a race mark, you'll not only lose momentum.. there's a good chance you'll also lose hull gelcoat. That's a big penalty, but Rule 31's still on the books.

I guess I also worry that letting SL boats hit race marks seems to bring us one step closer to something that looks like 'pinball' while taking a step further back from a true, sailboat racing emulation.

Having said that, of course a Race Director could decide not to include Rule 31 in the ruleset for a particular SL regatta.

* RULE 31 TOUCHING A MARK
31.1 While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.
31.2 A boat that has broken rule 31.1 may, after getting well clear of other boats as soon as possible, take a penalty by promptly making one complete 360º turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty after touching a finishing mark, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing. However, if a boat has gained a significant advantage in the race or series by touching the mark she shall retire.
User avatar
Jane Fossett
 
Posts: 2717
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:36 am

Postby Armchair Binder » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:34 am

The mark hitting rule seems NOT to be practiced or respected. The general feeling seems to be that hitting the mark is penalty enough.

So, it seems as though we need to take some sort of vote or ask SLailors to state a Supportive Yes, to amending (removing) this rule, or No, to start practicing this rule. In my experience, it seems that 99.9999999% of people that hit the marks while SL racing, and thus have already stated their vote by their actions, do not do a 360, but the other rules are respected. I fear the wrath, but the name Jane Fossett can be included in this list.

Tory Micheline, Race Committee extraordinaire at Mowry, sent me an IM also that she supports the removal of rule 31 (hitting race marks); I would paste the entire IM here, but cannot due to strong sexual content; LOLOL, so here is an excerpt. "A very interesting thought ! And although a purist about the RRS, I think it probably is a penalty enough." -Tory
Armchair Binder
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:07 pm
Location: Sailing along the EOW

Postby Liv Leigh » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:43 am

AC, where is a list of the complete rules that we generally have in use in SL Sailing?
It might be interesting to review the list. An idea can be to define a number of sets of rules. So that race directors have an easier job communicating the ruleset they wish to use.
They could range from simple to ' nearly full ISAF'. I can imagine the regular sets won't include rule 31, but the very strict ones would in this case.
User avatar
Liv Leigh
 
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:21 pm
Location: Sala-Y-Gomez

Postby joepie Korobase » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:46 am

Hitting another boat slows me down too, and they are less easy to avoid sometimes.
joepie Korobase
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:40 am

Re: Should we allow hitting race marks?

Postby MarkTwain White » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:02 am

Jane Fossett wrote:I guess I also worry that letting SL boats hit race marks seems to bring us one step closer to something that looks like 'pinball' while taking a step further back from a true, sailboat racing emulation.


For those that want to use the full rulebook in SL sailing there as a whole discussion that needs to take place regarding what rules CAN be used in a virtual product that can regularly misreport your "true" location (whatever that means in a virtual world).

In this particular instance we have several SL anomolies that DO NOT occur in RL....
1. Bounding Boxes
Judge: You hit the mark
Skipper: No I didnt
Judge: I saw you boat stop at the mark
Skipper: Bounding Box

2. Sails on the wrong side of the boat.

3. What the skipper sees differs from what the judge sees because of LL graphical lag and anomolies.

4. Extended sail hits the mark but it really isn't there

5. Extended sail misses the mark but the boat stops


None of the above examples will happen in RL. So when we talk about a full rule set, we MUST figure out WHICH rules CAN be enforced. Jane, it is quiet possible to extend the RL analogies too far.

In light of the myrid LL enduced problems surrounding a mark, and in light of the fact that hitting a mark in SL is much worse that hitting a RL floating mark I thing it is very reasonable to call ISAF Rule 31 not a dependable rule in SL sailing. To enforce it wouild be to make Jane's pinball scenario real. We ridgely enforce LL produced penalties. Now THATS a pinball game.

The bigger question to recognize here is, as I said, if we form an ALL RULES LEAGUE (I am toying with a logo) then a reasoned discussion must follow where those interested in ALL RULES racing come up with a healthyAppendix to the rule book:

Appendix XX= Rule modifications for virtual racing in X program.
SIM PRESERVATION PROJECT -- http://simpreservation.com
User avatar
MarkTwain White
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:20 pm
Location: Starboards Yacht Club

Postby Armchair Binder » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:21 am

The generally accepted rules in SL can be found here. http://slsailing.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1157
Armchair Binder
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:07 pm
Location: Sailing along the EOW

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron