Virtual PROTESTS for the 21st Century

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Virtual PROTESTS for the 21st Century

Postby MarkTwain White » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:52 am

In another topic Liv and Mothgirl joked:

Liv: I dont need a handbag aboard, i prefer to travel light but thanks for considering

MG: The handbag is for defence and pulling rabbits out

Liv: Maybe then yes.. to hit people with who ram into you from port tacks. It should be more effective than protesting


Funny, but joking aside for a moment, your comment sparked a thought. I am just as unhappy as anyone that sailing by the rule book in SL has never really materialized. There are a variety of reasons for this, but not the least of these is that the process of protests, honoring protests, and enforcing protests just doesn't go well in this virtual community and with this technology.

Thinking outside of the proverbial box for a bit, can anyone come up with some thoughts on alternate penalties that COULD work in this community and with this technology? It can be a serious suggestions or a funny ones.

Suggestion #1 will be known as the Liv's Handbag solution which I will put in the funny catagory. :D

Suggestion #2? :?:
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Re: Virtual PROTESTS for the 21st Century

Postby Wingedsentry Waechter » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:12 am

MarkTwain White wrote:Thinking outside of the proverbial box for a bit, can anyone come up with some thoughts on alternate penalties that COULD work in this community and with this technology? It can be a serious suggestions or a funny ones.

?:


? Instead of making a 360 degree penalty: "/1 moor" and raise again.

or even: log off, log in ( with the additional trouble of rerezzing)

:)

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Postby Heidi Stiglitz » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:14 am

Make them sail a pink boat. And before someone says it. those of us that already sail pink boats never break the rules in the first place!
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Re: Virtual PROTESTS for the 21st Century

Postby Lance Corrimal » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:49 am

Wingedsentry Waechter wrote:? Instead of making a 360 degree penalty: "/1 moor" and raise again.


wouldn't that loose you the race wind?
might even lead to an unfair advantage.
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Postby Liv Leigh » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:21 am

You won't loose racewind. With some boats a 'moor and raise' might actually go quicker than a 360 though. i think the main problem is in most races that the race directors don't know the rulebook too well themselves often, or they dislike enforcing them. For social reasons, or because of time pressure.

Then many racers also think using the rules to your advantage is ''not nice'' or even ''mean''. It can be hard to find racers who play the same game if you like to use leeward rights or starboard to defend your position.

I know Taku has booked recent successes by monitoring his races and enforcing protest turns on the spot. This happened after many lobbies from Julia, some others and me. (I was the first person to be asked by him ''do a 360 please'' :P after a foul on a port start)

At NYC and TYC Disisme was strict on start procedures, adding the extra feature of the race director directly forcing protest turns there. I thought this worked pretty well.

It might be an idea if one or more clubs start a course on directing races. One in which you learn some basic skills like the line/windsetter, but also learn the basic rules and some methods of enforcing. There could be a diploma added to it even :P
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Postby Mothgirl Dibou » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:32 am

In the future it might be possible to make the boat count your penalties. Virtual Skipper does this as well. It shows you you need to do a 360, and when you do, it subtracts it. The SLSA protocols provide the necessary information for this. But lag and other limitations prevent us from being able to make this possible here and now.

But we could do a few things though:
A boat can detect collisions, acquire the name of the object it collided with and email this info to the startline with the location and time. In the same manner it could detect 360's and report them as well. The RD can check the list after the boats all finished if he wants. I admit it isnt failsafe and might not be used at all and is a little too much and.. and... it would certainly not make things simpler.

So the best way would be to have the RD act as an umpire on the water. Preferably with a little extra help, because he can't see everything and be everywhere at the same time. Let's face it. All those races that are organised aren't much more that an avatar hanging in the sky and 5 boats starting and finishing 5 minutes later. It costs the race directors a lot of time every week at the same hour, and all this is mainly to operate the startline.

There is no way the race director can keep an eye on the entire fleet and there is no way he can keep up with all of the boats. If you know you are not watched, why do a penalty? If you can get away with saying: "I didnt see you" or "my screen had frozen", why would you do a penalty? Even Liv, the fairest of all fair sailors just admitted that she cheated in Taku's race :-P

That was the part that defines the problem. And now the solution ....
Future boats will be slower, so that will help a little with flying around chasing boats with gennakers. But if you want 2 persons on the water and do it properly, we need not 1 but 2 volunteers to give up their free time to organise events for others.

And this brings us back to the startline discussion.

We need to be able to start multiple classes shortly after eachother. The speeds are slower, the water is bigger and therefor the races will take longer. Let's begin to organise races for 2 or 3 classes, with heats of 15 minutes at least and classes starting every 2 minutes (depending on the size of the boats) after eachother. And lets do a max. of 3 heats per class. The number of events could be diminished, while the number of races could even grow.

We organise the few events that remain in a very thorough way. Do a lot of advertising and make a lot of noise about them, have 1 race director and 2 or 3 umpires, attract spectators, turn them into major events with the same amount of effort.

All we need is a more advanced startline or (for the time being) 3 lines next to eachother. Or we can rez them at the same spot when only 1 is activated. Lots of possibilities to overcome this. The race directors and umpires will have more fun, the sailors will have more fun, the spectators will have more fun and last but not least: the rules will be obeyed. Yay!

Oops another long post. I need to learn to be more brief!
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Postby Aleister Biondetti » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:24 am

Liv Leigh wrote:i think the main problem is in most races that the race directors don't know the rulebook too well themselves often, or they dislike enforcing them. For social reasons, or because of time pressure.

Then many racers also think using the rules to your advantage is ''not nice'' or even ''mean''. It can be hard to find racers who play the same game if you like to use leeward rights or starboard to defend your position.

BINGO!

Thank you Liv, this is at the heart of it from my experience. There is a general reluctance to protesting across the community. And I include myself in this. Whether it's from being hazy about the rules or being perceived as an "ass" or "too aggressive" it is there.

Even Liv, the fairest of all fair sailors just admitted that she cheated in Taku's race

Now Mothgirl I know this is in jest but I can't see Liv trying to cheat but maybe getting "over excited" :D

But you made a strong point. We all want to win. And with Liv (who I absolutely love racing with) I know she will try her hardest to win. And in making split second decisions we all sometimes find ourselves on the wrong side of a mark or boat or unable to turn fast enough. That’s just racing.

I honestly believe we need to make it okay to protest, okay to do the penalty. And if we are hazy on the rules, being protested is a great learning experience. All my studying and reading the rules were nothing compared to the first time I had starboard called on me. A 360 and discussion after the race and I had gained some real and practical knowledge.

Well anyway just my .2L I'm going back to sleep...
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Postby Liv Leigh » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:18 pm

My 1L added: I am not ''the fairest of all racers''. When racing, for most of the time I am a competitive bitch that'll try to go to the limit. I appreciate opponents that do the same. And yes, I love racing people like Alei, or Bea Woodget (my most favourite opponent as she will never give up during a race, always looking for that little corner that get's her back into the race). Like any of us I have to make quick decisions, that's the fun. Sometimes that gets you in trouble..

And yes, I find rules interesting, but also because they are ''part of the game'' and as with any game they can be used to your advantage if you understand them well enough. People like AC or M1sha know this very well..

As about ''cheating'', my foul in that particular race wasn't a cheat. It was a simple human error. Which fouls are most of the time.

The only thing that really concerns me is that generally we all race with our implicit ''rulebook''. Those ''personal rulebooks'' may not always overlap, which causes misunderstandings. using leeward rights to your advantage can be''mean'' for one person, who considers it ''fair'' if he is allowed ''room'' at the start line coming in from windward.

That may also be part of the problem: Those people are our friends, all racing by their own rulebooks.. I also don't like to take them into Im and say: ''hey, you fouled Croco there'', while croco himself might not even be aware himself.

(sorry croco, I needed a name)
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Postby Stuart Choche » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:34 pm

100% agree Aleister.

First: Better rule understanding for RDs and sailors.

Second: lets keep things simple.

Third: protest when you've been fouled.

Fourth: if you are eyewitness of a foul, asked for helping the victim.

In RL RDs are party and so not able to be jury. In Sl we shouldn't be too fuzzy there. So RDs could act as umpires and as jury as well.

I always loved that sailors in a race act as their own umpire (for most of the time). Lets keep this nice tradition. And lets install a protest culture, so nobody feels beeing bullied and nobody feels being a victim

my 2 € cent
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Boats with attitude

Postby Jane Fossett » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:52 am

Mothgirl Dibou wrote:In the future it might be possible to make the boat count your penalties. ...

Good Grief.
It's my boat. I want it to count my blessings, not keep track of my mistakes.
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Re: Boats with attitude

Postby Alain Gloster » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:49 pm

Jane Fossett wrote:
Mothgirl Dibou wrote:In the future it might be possible to make the boat count your penalties. ...

Good Grief.
It's my boat. I want it to count my blessings, not keep track of my mistakes.


Thats becasue you don't make mistakes Jane :)

On the other hand if it's keeping track of my mistakes I'd suggest you include the code to escape a buffer overflow becasue they'll accumulate to the sinking point as fast as if I'd kicked a hole in the hull :(
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Postby Surfwidow Beaumont » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:39 am

people can make a screenshot quite easily in competitive racing - and thats evidence

but most people doing a 360 is pretty simple and backwards compatible ;)

in the end - if you 'damage' someone else on a regular basis and do not take the punishment or own up after the race then they are unlikely to be welcome at races as the sailing community is pretty tight
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