ISAF Racing Rules Of Sailing Seminar

The place for discussions about SL and RL sailing, grid-happenings, and other topics of general interest.

ISAF Racing Rules Of Sailing Seminar

Postby Tim Warrhol » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:19 pm

This will be a seminar explaining the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing which will be used for the SYC Fizz Summer Series.

Sunday July 5th 6:00am SLT.

A copy of the ISAF rule book can be downloaded here.
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS2009-2012-[5950].pdf
User avatar
Tim Warrhol
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:12 pm
Location: Toledo, OH

Postby Bea Woodget » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:46 pm

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! :)
User avatar
Bea Woodget
 
Posts: 937
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 am

Postby Jane Fossett » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:38 pm

<--will bring bagels if SYC provides coffee.
User avatar
Jane Fossett
 
Posts: 2717
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:36 am

Postby Tim Warrhol » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:25 am

For those of you who missed it! A copy of the slides are available through me in-world, was well as on the web at:

http://img248.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=slide1.png

The following is the transcript of discussion that coincided with the slide show

[5:05] Tim Warrhol: the first frame discusses the spirit of the rules at each fphase take a moment to read each page carefully! Its important to remember the the purpose of the rules is to give a right of way boat (ROW) a reason to turn away from an incident with from a give way boat (GW) with the knowledge that there will be a penalty.
[5:05] Liv Leigh: have i crashed?
[5:05] Tim Warrhol: we will begin with some basic defininitions
[5:06] Tim Warrhol: the first frame shows Clear Astern...Ahead and Overlapped
[5:06] Tim Warrhol: can everyone see clearly the images below the text?
[5:07] Tim Warrhol: the important thing that established an overlap in sailing is a verticle line drawn from the aft most part of a boat in its normal position.
[5:08] Tim Warrhol: in image one you can see that A is clear ahead of be...in image 2 the same boats are overlapped from the line of B's stern
[5:08] Quirky Torok: its states hull and equipment in normal position.. does this include spin poles???
[5:09] Tim Warrhol: yes especially on a fizz
[5:09] Quirky Torok: kk
[5:09] Tim Warrhol: good question!
[5:09] Quirky Torok: thank you
[5:09] Tim Warrhol: was typing that as you were!
[5:10] Tim Warrhol: in image 3 we see a multiple boat case. because b overlaps a...a is then overlapped with rights on c
[5:10] Jane Fossett: yup
[5:10] Tim Warrhol: this can go on for multiple boats until an overlap is broken
[5:11] Tim Warrhol: any questions on this frame?
[5:11] Liv Leigh: not so far
[5:12] Tim Warrhol: ok the next is the term fetching. This is seen later in the rule book and describes a boat the is essentially laying a mark without having to tack or gybe to round it
[5:12] Tim Warrhol: then we see finishing and keeping clear.
[5:12] Tim Warrhol: we will discuss keeping clear
[5:13] Tim Warrhol: this is an important one because it defines the limitations of rights for a ROW boat
[5:14] Tim Warrhol: a ROW boat must be able to alter course in either direction without incident, however her rights later in the rules are limited beyond this
[5:14] Tim Warrhol: any questions on this page?
[5:15] Fearless Freenote: ROW boat is the l'ward?
[5:15] Tim Warrhol: in this last page yes
[5:16] Tim Warrhol: please read the next page, but i will begin to discuss the term "obstruction"
[5:17] Jane Fossett: Windward -Leeward Question?
[5:17] Tim Warrhol: yes jane
[5:17] Jane Fossett: We've been defining 'head to wind' as zero degrees.
[5:17] Jane Fossett: some call it just 'luffing'
[5:18] Jane Fossett: you agree zero?
[5:18] Tim Warrhol: this is correct a boat is luffing...until it crosses "head to wind" at this point the boat is tacking under the guidlines of rule 13
[5:18] Jane Fossett: k
[5:19] Tim Warrhol: under mark-room...please note that limitations of room to tack
[5:19] Tim Warrhol: and we will move on to obstructions
[5:19] Tim Warrhol: please read this carefully
[5:19] Tim Warrhol: what is an obstruction
[5:20] Tim Warrhol: land, a moored boat
[5:20] Tim Warrhol: also an obstruction may be in some circumstances another ROW boat
[5:21] Jane Fossett: A capsized boat is an obstruction?
[5:21] Tim Warrhol: yes but a capsized boat is covered in rule 22
[5:21] Jane Fossett: kk
[5:22] Tim Warrhol: in the left image we see a classic case. 2 boats on port and one on starboard
[5:23] Tim Warrhol: in this case P1 the port boat closest to us must tack to avoid the starboard boat. because of this the Starboard boat is an obstruction and P2 the port boat furthest away must allow P1 room to tack
[5:23] Tim Warrhol: this make sense to everyone?
[5:23] Jane Fossett: y
[5:23] Liv Leigh: y
[5:24] Quirky Torok: just
[5:24] Tim Warrhol: this will be discussed in more detail when we get to rule 19
[5:24] Bunnie Mills: question
[5:25] Tim Warrhol: yes bunnie?
[5:25] Bunnie Mills: so this has priority over the fact that P1 would tack before P2
[5:25] Bunnie Mills: no ROW while tacking
[5:26] Liv Leigh: ok nd the right icture?
[5:26] Tim Warrhol: yes...however we will discuss the right to tack for an obstruction when we reach rule 20
[5:26] Bunnie Mills: ty
[5:26] Tim Warrhol: yes liv....the answer to this question is 2-fold.
[5:27] Tim Warrhol: before the starting signal...the boat would not be an obstruction. after the starting signal time = 0:00 the boat is an obstruction
[5:28] Quirky Torok: interesting
[5:28] Liv Leigh: ok and the star buoy ont he starboard side?
[5:28] Tim Warrhol: same answer!
[5:29] Tim Warrhol: however proper course is another part of that answer and that is coming
[5:29] Tim Warrhol: any other questions here?
[5:30] Tim Warrhol: and TADA! Proper course! Its my understanding this is a very heated debate in SL!
[5:30] Jane Fossett: yes!
[5:30] Liv Leigh: well it s not int he RRSSL :P
[5:32] Tim Warrhol: ok #1 Before the starting signal there is no proper course. this goes back to livs question. on an upwind start if two boats were approaching a starting bouy the leeward boat would be able to luff only until the start 0:00 at wich point he is bound to sail proper course which would be close hauled.
[5:33] Tim Warrhol: you can also see in the image that blue must allow yellow room to sail to the mark
[5:34] Liv Leigh: ok.. but how does this affect luffing rights after start clock?
[5:34] Tim Warrhol: im most cases proper course is hard to see so rarely called even IRL. But when close to bouys, starts and finishes it becomes more clear
[5:35] Tim Warrhol: after the starting clock... and as limited by rule 17 a boat may not sail above proper course. if it is a beat, a boat may not sail above close hauled
[5:35] Jane Fossett: so the lee boat can't luff?
[5:36] Tim Warrhol: it depends jane...under rule 11 yes. but rule 17 discussed in a bit limits this depending on how when and where the overlapp is established
[5:37] Tim Warrhol: this will be more clear as we get to these rules
[5:37] Jane Fossett: this was a contentious issue in prior cup races; this will be interesting.
[5:37] Liv Leigh: ok. i guess we need to pay more attention to that part then..
[5:37] Tim Warrhol: is everyone clear on when a boat is racing and what defines room?
[5:38] Kei Cioc: kk
[5:38] Liv Leigh: and a difference with RRSSL.. as i remember i once luffed someone half a sim from the race course LOL
[5:38] Tim Warrhol: :) id shoot you!
[5:38] joro Aya is Online
[5:39] Tim Warrhol: ok on the next frame we define starting, port and starboard tack, and the zone.
[5:40] Tim Warrhol: this is much different that RRSSL. In the new ISAF RRS the zone is defined as 3 BOAT LENGTHS
[5:40] Tim Warrhol: pretty much means anywhere near the mark lol
[5:40] Jane Fossett: in J-Class anywhere in the sim (grin)
[5:40] Tim Warrhol: a bot like the j-class 3 boat lengths is almost an entire sim
[5:40] Liv Leigh: that could be half a sim in some cases :P
[5:41] Jane Fossett: haha
[5:41] Liv Leigh: you d easily have overlapping zones
[5:41] Liv Leigh: wonder how we handle that
[5:41] Tim Warrhol: yes and under the new rules IRL this really limits a give way boat
[5:42] Tim Warrhol: later in the rules it pretty much come to this liv...if there is a doubt that a boat has established an overlap, it will be assumed she didnt
[5:42] Tim Warrhol: everyone asleep yet?
[5:42] Quirky Torok: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[5:42] Tim Warrhol: hahahaha
[5:42] Kei Cioc: hehe
[5:42] Moontears Vought: still here:P
[5:43] Tim Warrhol: we will take a small break at 6:00 am
[5:43] Moontears Vought: dont let anyone demanding my time know were breaking at 6
[5:44] Tim Warrhol: now we are into the meat and guts of the rules..."When Boats Meet"
[5:44] Tim Warrhol: evryone should be familiar with rule 10
[5:45] Tim Warrhol: this is your basic port starboard rule....but we will discuss later there are times when this rule does not apply. particuallarly in rule 18
[5:45] Tim Warrhol: Rule 11 discusses luffing again. If boats are overlapped the leeward boat has ROW and may luff, but is limited by rule 17 later.
[5:46] Tim Warrhol: Rule 12 is clear ahead/clear astern.
[5:46] Liv Leigh: yes.. can we get into the details of 11
[5:46] Tim Warrhol: yes liv
[5:48] Tim Warrhol: rule 11 is very basic it defines leeward rights. in rule 17 however it establishes, that if a boat establishes an overlap within 2 boatlengths to leeward of another boat, it may NOT sail above its proper course
[5:48] Tim Warrhol: a boat being passed to windward by another boat may sail that boat to another sim if she so chooses
[5:49] Tim Warrhol: this is the defining difference
[5:49] Liv Leigh: ok, but if the overlap is established by the windward boat?
[5:49] Liv Leigh: then you can luff
[5:49] Tim Warrhol: yes correct
[5:49] joro Aya: sho desides what is proper course?
[5:49] Liv Leigh: ok, so me luffing armchair up half a sim in that race was fine lol
[5:49] Tim Warrhol: and you may also sail a boat passing to windward beyond the mark
[5:50] Tim Warrhol: or layline
[5:50] Tim Warrhol: rather
[5:50] Tim Warrhol: rule 12
[5:51] Tim Warrhol: important to note that if a boat ahead of you suddenly slows down...you are abligated to keep clear
[5:51] Tim Warrhol: obligated even!
[5:51] joro Aya: heh, rule 12 really should be implemented in the SL rules set
[5:51] Liv Leigh: isnt it?
[5:52] Tim Warrhol: yes it is
[5:52] Liv Leigh: i think we have had protests in sl using it
[5:52] Liv Leigh: people poking in your back at start etc
[5:52] Tim Warrhol: now we reach rule 13!
[5:52] joro Aya: heh, people poke me in the back a lot during races
[5:53] Tim Warrhol: earlier we discussed "head to wind" and "luffing"
[5:53] Tim Warrhol: as you can see the rules define when a boat is tacking
[5:54] Jane Fossett: kk
[5:54] Tim Warrhol: you must tack with clear room even if you are tacking from port onto starboard
[5:54] Tim Warrhol: pretty simple really!
[5:54] Liv Leigh: ok so after head to wind the green one would be restricted by 13 in this case
[5:54] Liv Leigh: and before by 17?
[5:54] Taku Raymaker is Online
[5:54] Liv Leigh: well it was on starboard befpre i guess
[5:55] Tim Warrhol: yes restriced by 13 and before had rights under 10 Port/Starboard
[5:55] Reven Fhang: how do ya know the red didnt tack too far for instance?...
[5:56] Tim Warrhol: yes raven, a boat has completed a tack when it is closehauled in the new course
[5:56] Jane Fossett: red didnt tack
[5:56] joro Aya: red boats should be banned :)
[5:56] Liv Leigh: it seems to be still in the water.. must be colin in it
[5:56] Reven Fhang: lol
[5:56] Tim Warrhol: so if it tacks too far it limitation stop when i closehauled. this does not mean that another rule may not apply because she over turned
[5:57] Tim Warrhol: does that make sense?
[5:57] Quirky Torok dribbles
[5:57] joro Aya: no, but You never make sense, so it not matter :D
[5:58] Liv Leigh: ok so for instance you could luff under eleven after a tack when a windward boat establishes an over lap there..
[5:58] Liv Leigh: 14b is a bit of an issue in sl?
[5:59] Tim Warrhol: yes you cant really damage a boat. but you can possibly cause script errors or something to that effect
[5:59] Liv Leigh: i d protest the boat maker in that case
[5:59] joro Aya: or fuse the boats together, like in the silver finals
[5:59] Tim Warrhol: ok wee will take a short break and be abck at 6:05
[6:00] Quirky Torok breaks out the smokes
[6:00] Jane Fossett: That rule in SL was made uder Havok 1
[6:00] Jane Fossett: 'script damage' is far less common under H4
[6:00] joro Aya: boats can still get "fused" in havok 4
[6:00] Liv Leigh: it d be interesting though... to have boats that can take only so much damage in a race
[6:01] Jane Fossett: as if we didnt have enough 'crashes'
[6:01] Dunan Wilder: sinking ships . i have one of those, but they have canons to play with :)
[6:01] Liv Leigh: hehe
[6:01] Liv Leigh: well i have your torpedo still jane..
[6:01] Liv Leigh: still didnt figure how it works
[6:01] Jane Fossett: haha
[6:01] Liv Leigh: it just sinks
[6:05] Tim Warrhol: Rule 14 is a tricky one in SL but is important to know that contact should be avoided at all costs
[6:06] Tim Warrhol: aside from that we wont spend much time on it
[6:06] Tig Spijkers: hear hear
[6:06] Jane Fossett: it becomes importat
[6:06] Tig Spijkers: indeed
[6:06] Jane Fossett: in boats with phantom hulls
[6:06] Tim Warrhol: Rule 15 discusses the limitations of a boat that has just gained ROW
[6:07] Jane Fossett: the 'real' boat i assume is the non-phantom vehicle
[6:07] Tim Warrhol: the most classic case of this is a port boat tacking to starboard
[6:07] Dunan Wilder: well half ogf the discussion is chinese to me in any case , under wind, luffing, windward, leeward, all chinese
[6:08] Tim Warrhol: ill put on my translator wait!
[6:08] Dunan Wilder: can't they say turn right or left insteaf od tacking starboard
[6:08] Porter Tracy: same here Dunan
[6:08] Quirky Torok: dont worry Dunan.. in half an hours time you will want another one
[6:08] Tim Warrhol: lol
[6:08] Bunnie Mills: hihi
[6:08] Dunan Wilder: sometimes i wonder if sailors did not invent all that just to annoy non sailors
[6:08] Jane Fossett: grin
[6:08] Fearless Freenote: yep we did
[6:08] Tim Warrhol: hahahaha
[6:08] Dunan Wilder: ^^
[6:09] Liv Leigh: 15 has some potential for interpretation on the situation
[6:09] Tim Warrhol: the reason for the terms are simple....you cant just say left or right. what if your looking at the boat backwards?
[6:09] joro Aya: works in cars
[6:09] Dunan Wilder: i guess :)
[6:09] Liv Leigh: some people are fine with 3 mm room, others would feel they need change course when 2 boat lengths away
[6:11] Tig Spijkers: when it comes to lenghs never believe what any man tells you is my motto
[6:11] Tim Warrhol: yes jane 15 is a close call in most cases. however remember our definitions. "Room" is defined as: The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring
promptly in a seamanlike way.
[6:11] Fearless Freenote: LOL
[6:11] Dunan Wilder: depends on the boats too i suppose, slow boats need less distance to feel safe
[6:11] Quirky Torok: you been spoilt tig
[6:11] Liv Leigh: yes, but there we go.. if (name not mentioned) is on the boat..
[6:11] Dunan Wilder: lol
[6:12] Liv Leigh: him behaving in a seamanlike way would require us all to leave the sim
[6:12] joro Aya: so that would be a... simmanlike way?
[6:12] Tig Spijkers: and cook dinner for him
[6:12] Tim Warrhol: so if i were determining a protest case i would ask did the boat have time to respond promptly and seaman like....lol liv who was that again
[6:12] Jane Fossett: So Tim you are saying Rule 15's 'reoom' depends on weather and sea conditions too
[6:12] Tim Warrhol: yes jane
[6:12] Dunan Wilder: that was 'name not mentioned' ^;^
[6:12] Jane Fossett: in SL= Lag
[6:12] Jane Fossett: kk
[6:12] Tim Warrhol: lag too!
[6:13] Liv Leigh: that s an issue because 'lag' can be split up in collective and individual lag types
[6:13] Jane Fossett: tough judging call
[6:13] Dunan Wilder: there's server lag and viewer lag
[6:13] joro Aya: in other words, i can't just luff right into another boat. i have to give it time and room to avoid me
[6:13] Liv Leigh: and people s response time varies on the part of the word theyre in
[6:13] Fearless Freenote: and sailor's lag
[6:13] Quirky Torok: i think most of these are going to be tough judgeing
[6:13] Tim Warrhol: i hardly see this case IRL except for verry abrupt course changes
[6:13] Dunan Wilder: *grins*
[6:13] Tim Warrhol: correct joro
[6:13] Liv Leigh: if you, say are in South africa, you need half a second
[6:14] Liv Leigh: added to the time you d need in california
[6:14] Jane Fossett: US deserves that advantage
[6:15] Tim Warrhol: Rule 16 is somewhat of an extension of rule 15. and limits a ROW boat from making abbruopt course changes
[6:15] Jane Fossett: we have nuclear weapons
[6:15] Tim Warrhol: making abrupt course changes
[6:15] Tim Warrhol: make note of rule 16.2
[6:15] Liv Leigh: thats not likely to happen
[6:15] Liv Leigh: unless the boat is very wide
[6:16] Reven Fhang: who really determines of what "keep clear"is....seems like if ya had10 boats you'd have 10 different opinions on what "clear" is?
[6:16] joro Aya: clear means not hitting :)
[6:16] Tim Warrhol: if...a port tack boat is ducking a starboard tack boat, you MUST not alter course to interfere with them
[6:16] Tim Warrhol: thats about it joro
[6:17] Jane Fossett: that makes sense
[6:17] Liv Leigh: i generally protest when they get intimate without my consent
[6:17] Tim Warrhol: remember in the definitions a give way boat has "kept clear" if the ROW boat can steer in either direction without immediatly making contact
[6:17] Dunan Wilder: ^.^
[6:17] Tim Warrhol: any more questions on rule 16?
[6:18] Liv Leigh: but how can we know.. only when the ROW boat tacks and hits the other you find out
[6:18] Liv Leigh: which is not allowed under 14...?
[6:18] Liv Leigh: not tack i mean.. change course
[6:19] Tim Warrhol: yes but in rule 14 remember a boat can not be penelized unless there is damage
[6:20] joro Aya: 16.2 is not so hard to understand, me think. if a boat tries to give me row, i may not make it impossible for that boat to do so
[6:20] Tim Warrhol: the only times i ever here rule 15 and 16 cases is when it is clear the an "ABRUPT" change of course was made
[6:20] Tim Warrhol: ok rule 17...back to proper course again!
[6:21] Tim Warrhol: this is where it is established that if the overlap is gained within 2 BL to leeward your luffing rights are limited to proper course
[6:21] joro Aya: what is definition of proper course?
[6:21] Tim Warrhol: and if a boat is passing you wo windward you are only limited by rule 11
[6:22] Tim Warrhol: proper course is the course you would sail to the mark in the fastest was in absence of another boat
[6:22] Tim Warrhol: if everyone has read 17 i will advance to some images of this rule in action
[6:23] Tim Warrhol: everyone ok?
[6:23] Liv Leigh: ok
[6:23] joro Aya: otay
[6:23] Jane Fossett: wait
[6:23] Jane Fossett: one Q
[6:23] Fearless Freenote: never better
[6:23] Tim Warrhol: yes jane?
[6:23] Jane Fossett: if i am tacking downwind towards the mark
[6:23] Quirky Torok: there IS only one Q.. you should know that
[6:23] Reven Fhang: ya lost me at go......but continue,,,,,lol
[6:23] Jane Fossett: fastest course is not rumb line...
[6:24] Jane Fossett: can I flip tacks to interfere with the other boat
[6:24] Jane Fossett: since 'proper course' is fastest
[6:24] Tim Warrhol: 17 ON THE SAME TACK
[6:24] Jane Fossett: [does that makessense?]
[6:24] Jane Fossett: ok
[6:24] Tim Warrhol: otherwise wule 10 applies
[6:24] Tim Warrhol: rule 10 applies
[6:24] joro Aya: rule 17 is only when boats are on same tack
[6:25] Tim Warrhol: ok lets look at the left image
[6:25] Jane Fossett: i could flip taks onto the same course (this was a protest in Tako Cup)
[6:25] Jane Fossett: kk
[6:25] Tim Warrhol: excuse me i mean the right image
[6:25] joro Aya: the port image, He means
[6:26] Tim Warrhol: here you can see the black boat establishes an overlap and sails well above proper course. this is the basics of the rule but as we go to the left image we can see how it gets more techinical.
[6:27] Tim Warrhol: in the left image the black boat is surfing waves (not possible in SL but to prove a point!)
[6:27] Quirky Torok: i think thats mothgirls next aim in the fizz engine
[6:27] joro Aya: is possible in SL, to an extend
[6:27] Liv Leigh: it is.. fizz 3 you ll use the waves
[6:27] Liv Leigh: and not sail as straight all the time
[6:28] Quirky Torok: th invisible waves!
[6:28] Liv Leigh: theyre there
[6:28] Tim Warrhol: although the white boat is sailing a straight line to the mark, the black boats proper course would be to surf the waves, as it is the fastest way to the bouy
[6:29] Tim Warrhol: any more questions on 17?
[6:29] Tim Warrhol: again i will emphasise that proper course is hard to define even IRL, and i have normally only seens cases closer to marks or start/finish lines
[6:30] Jane Fossett: Tim lets assume both boats are running toward the mark on the right.... black boat wants to do it several 160 degree legs
[6:30] Jane Fossett: white boat wants to go straight for the mark.
[6:30] Liv Leigh: esp. downwind.. there s so much variation in the chosen downwind angles
[6:30] Jane Fossett: what is proper course?
[6:32] Nber Medici is Online
[6:32] Liv Leigh: tim.. will you leave the slideshow up?
[6:32] Tim Warrhol: hahaha good one! and there is not a clear answer in the classroom. it would depend on the boats, the conditions, and course and really could only be called on the water
[6:32] Jane Fossett: fair enough./
[6:33] Tim Warrhol: yes liv i will and i will make the images available
[6:33] Liv Leigh: k thanks.. i ll go for groceries then LOL
[6:33] Liv Leigh: and read back
[6:33] Tim Warrhol: ok....on to rule 18! this is the most complicated rule in sailing
[6:33] Moontears Vought: i'll like to read it over and over a few dozen times myself :)
[6:35] Tim Warrhol: i will give you all time to read through this. i will do a quick question answer along with some images....so please chat ready when you have read
[6:36] Tim Warrhol: 1. Remember the "Zone" under these rules is 3 boat lenghts
[6:36] joro Aya: three???
[6:36] Quirky Torok: yup.. its new Joro
[6:36] Jane Fossett: 'inflation'
[6:36] Tim Warrhol: 2. Remember that this does not apply to 2 boats on oppisite tacks that are on a beat to windward
[6:37] Tim Warrhol: 3. does not apply to one boat approaching a mark and a boat leaving. in this case all other rules apply
[6:37] Dunan Wilder: what does apply in that case ?
[6:37] Bunnie Mills: no wait please
[6:37] Dunan Wilder: normal rules ?
[6:37] Tim Warrhol: yes dunan
[6:38] Dunan Wilder: ok :)
[6:38] Tim Warrhol: bunnie your question?
[6:38] Bunnie Mills: if downwind, i can cut a port tack boat out of the mark when i am starboard ?
[6:39] Jane Fossett: yes
[6:39] joro Aya: no, only upwind
[6:39] Jane Fossett: starboard has row
[6:39] Bunnie Mills: confused.
[6:40] joro Aya: upwind stb has ROW, downwind inside boat must get room
[6:40] Jane Fossett: if overlapped same tack
[6:40] Tim Warrhol: downwind the important thing is...who was the furthest inside and overlapped when the first boat reached the "Zone". So if a port boat reaches the zone and is overlapped "inside" closest to the buoy, the staboard boat does not have rights at the buoy
[6:41] Jane Fossett: ok
[6:41] Bunnie Mills: ok thanks
[6:42] Tim Warrhol: in the first image we can see several boats and blue has reached the zone overlapped to the inside. the remaining outside boats will have to give her room, even if later the overlap is broken
[6:42] Tim Warrhol: until the has completely rounded the mark
[6:43] Tim Warrhol: in the left image here we see the purple boat is overlapped with the green boat
[6:43] Jane Fossett: tim if in that last situation the inside boat doesnt have room, which boat does she protest?
[6:44] Tim Warrhol: she would protest the boat not giving room. so if the furthest boat in the pin wheel is forcing everyone up....that boat would be at fault
[6:44] Jane Fossett: kk...
[6:45] joro Aya: but what if there is overlap with the closest boat, but not with the farthest, but closest and farthest do overlap?
[6:45] Quirky Torok: yellow boat has its sail in the wrong position for the wind
[6:45] Tim Warrhol: ok...the purple boat in the left image is overlapped inside to the green boat. even though greann reaches the "zone" first, green because of the overlap must give purple room.
[6:46] Tim Warrhol: lol just notcied tht quirky!
[6:46] Tim Warrhol: what the right image is supposed to be showing is how port/starboard does not apply downwind under rule 18
[6:47] Tim Warrhol: in this case red would still be entitled to room
[6:47] Tim Warrhol: any questions so far?
[6:47] joro Aya: yes, lots
[6:47] Bunnie Mills: my understanding was that room at mark always applies
[6:48] Bunnie Mills: given the overlap
[6:48] Tim Warrhol: yes it does bunnie. only upwind rules 10 (port/starboard) and rule 13 (tacking) are priority
[6:49] Tim Warrhol: joro?
[6:49] joro Aya: cannot ask questions because me not have pictures
[6:49] Tim Warrhol: ok you can ask me later1
[6:50] Tim Warrhol: 18.3 discusses the limitations of tacking in the zone.
[6:50] Tim Warrhol: 1. if you tack in the zone, you cannot cause the other boat to sail above closehauled....you do not have the right to luff or shoot the mark in this case
[6:50] joro Aya: blue is being naughty there
[6:51] Tim Warrhol: 2. if the other boat establishes an overlap on you while you are in the zone, you must give her room.
[6:51] Fearless Freenote: nah.. he's being clever
[6:51] Tim Warrhol: yes blue is naughty!
[6:51] Jane Fossett: grin; this rule makes sense
[6:51] Tim Warrhol: this is one of the most dangerous cases in sailing
[6:51] Tim Warrhol: blue is taking a giant risk
[6:52] Tim Warrhol: any questions here
[6:52] joro Aya: so blue is fouling here, right?
[6:52] Tim Warrhol: absolutely
[6:52] Tim Warrhol: because you can see in position #3 yellow has sailed above closehauled to avoid
[6:53] joro Aya: even though it completes the tack in time, it's still fouling
[6:53] Moontears Vought: bit if the wind was comming from the right of the pic, ranther than the top, blue didnt fowel yellow?
[6:53] Fearless Freenote: if blue has not touched yelo. how is that foul?
[6:54] joro Aya: it forces yellow to turn against the wind
[6:54] Fearless Freenote: and if he can overlap yelo, he's home free
[6:54] Moontears Vought: if blue forces yellow to turn tighter than close haul= bad, other wise its ok?
[6:54] Tim Warrhol: moon....in that case blue would not fowl because it has tacked clear and yellow did not have to sail above closehauled
[6:54] Jane Fossett: 'foul'
[6:54] Moontears Vought: thanks
[6:54] Jane Fossett: boats, not chickens
[6:54] Fearless Freenote: ummmm...
[6:55] Moontears Vought: i typoe too much, sorry
[6:55] Tim Warrhol: lol
[6:55] Jane Fossett: grin
[6:55] Moontears Vought: just got excited about having a question
[6:55] Fearless Freenote: :)
[6:55] Bunnie Mills: : )
[6:55] Tim Warrhol: lets say another example blues tacks and yellow establishes a leeward overlap after blue tacks...in this case blue must keep clear as well
[6:56] Tim Warrhol: any other questions about naughty blue?
[6:57] Tim Warrhol: 18.4 Gybing limits the ROW boat. In this case the blue boat must sail no further past the mark than required to sail her proper course.
[6:58] joro Aya: this is almost the situation of the last gold finals race at the last mark
[6:58] Tim Warrhol: although is entitled to make a safe and clean rounding
[6:59] Tim Warrhol: 18.5 is the get out of jail free card! if a ROW boat is not givien room and as a result she breaks a rule, she cannot be given a penalty
[6:59] Tim Warrhol: given room
[6:59] Tim Warrhol: any questions on 18.4 or 18.5?
[7:00] Quirky Torok: nope but two Major questions at the end of the presentation
[7:00] Tim Warrhol: ok
[7:00] Tim Warrhol: rule 19 we are back to our obstruction again!
[7:01] Tim Warrhol: 19.1 very important as it defines when it applies
[7:01] Tim Warrhol: 19.2a a ROW may choose to pass on either side
[7:02] Tim Warrhol: remember the image with 2 ports and 1 starboard?
[7:02] Moontears Vought: yes
[7:02] Tim Warrhol: in that case the P1 would have the optin of ducking or tacking to avoid a starboard boat
[7:02] Tim Warrhol: and P2 would have to respond accordingly
[7:03] Jane Fossett: Question: Was the small island in the Fizz Cup races at Far East YC an 'obstruction also a mark' and did Rule 18 apply?
[7:03] Tim Warrhol: 18 only applies to a "Mark" of the course
[7:03] Odysseus Yiyuan is Online
[7:03] Jane Fossett: and an obstruction can be a mark?
[7:04] Tim Warrhol: no
[7:04] Tim Warrhol: they are totally different
[7:04] joro Aya: the little island with the house on it was a mark. it had to be passed on a certain side
[7:04] Jane Fossett: 19.1 "obstruction except when it is also a mark"
[7:05] joro Aya: the little islands during the finals were not a mark.
[7:05] Tim Warrhol: wait let me catch up!
[7:05] Jane Fossett: grin
[7:05] Jane Fossett: [was thinking of the little mark/ island with the house]
[7:05] Odysseus Yiyuan is Offline
[7:06] Odysseus Yiyuan is Online
[7:06] joro Aya: rule 18 would apply at that island
[7:06] Tim Warrhol: a mark bouy is not an obstuction, however if an obstruction is defined as a mark of the course (such as a very tiny island or shoal) than rule 18 applies and not 19
[7:06] Jane Fossett: kk
[7:07] Tim Warrhol: and last but not least 19.2c rule 18 never applies in a long or continuing obstruction
[7:07] joro Aya: unless the mark-island is BIG, then it's a continuing obstruction and rule 19 applies
[7:07] Tim Warrhol: the inside overlapped boat must have room
[7:08] Tim Warrhol: 20 discusses 2 boats on the same tack when one of the must tack to avoid an obstruction
[7:08] Tim Warrhol: 1. You must hail
[7:08] Tim Warrhol: 2. you must must respond when hailed
[7:09] Tim Warrhol: 3. you must tack as soon as possible
[7:09] Tim Warrhol: also important in RRSSL this rule states room to tack or gybe.
[7:09] Tim Warrhol: here you are entitled to room to tack
[7:10] Tim Warrhol: beyond this the other boat would be oblighated by other rules such as proper course
[7:10] Tim Warrhol: any questions here?
[7:10] joro Aya: Tim, what if the obstruction is very small and boat one could easilly pass it on the other side?
[7:11] joro Aya: does an ROW boat two still have to give room to boat one to tack?
[7:11] Tim Warrhol: remember rule 19 states that the ROW may choose to pass an obstruction to either side
[7:11] Tim Warrhol: yes
[7:11] joro Aya: yes, but must it rive the other boat room to pass on the same side?
[7:11] Tim Warrhol: yes joro
[7:12] Tim Warrhol: yes joro
[7:12] joro Aya: drat, that's no fun
[7:12] Tim Warrhol: lol!
[7:12] Tim Warrhol: we are getting near to the end!
[7:12] Jane Fossett: There is a debate over whether Edge of the World is an obstruction
[7:13] Jane Fossett: but that i guess is up to the race director
[7:13] Nber Medici is Online
[7:13] Quirky Torok: course it is
[7:13] Tim Warrhol: 21....
[7:13] Bunnie Mills: continuous obstruction, why a debate ?
[7:13] Dunan Wilder: invisible wall
[7:13] joro Aya: heh, it's a cotinuing obstruction, me would say
[7:13] Moontears Vought: its impassable, it has to be an obstruction...
[7:13] Jane Fossett: [cough]
[7:13] Jane Fossett: I'll link to the discussion later
[7:14] Tim Warrhol: correct edge of world would be an obstruction
[7:14] MarkTwain White is Online
[7:14] Fearless Freenote: Gotta go, Thanks Tim for a great presentation. Bye all.
[7:14] Jane Fossett: I agree an obstruction.
[7:14] Dunan Wilder: what does 'backing a sail' ean ?
[7:14] Tim Warrhol: mort precise...a continuing obstruction
[7:14] Tim Warrhol: bye fearless
[7:14] Dunan Wilder: bye bye fearless :)
[7:15] Kei Cioc: cu Fearless
[7:15] joro Aya: backing a sail means pushing a sail against the wind, so the wind hits it from the wrong side
[7:15] Tim Warrhol: dunan....IRL boats willl backwind their sails to either slow down of sail backwards to avoid a prematuire start
[7:15] joro Aya: You do that to quickly slow down or to sail backwards
[7:15] Tim Warrhol: this does apply in SL because intentionally or unintentionally you can do this with Trudeau boats
[7:16] Dunan Wilder: ah
[7:16] Tim Warrhol: 21.1 premature starters must stay clear of boats that have started the race correctly untill they are on the prestart side of the line
[7:17] Tim Warrhol: 21.2 a boat taking a penalty must stay clear of one that is not
[7:17] Tim Warrhol: 21.3 again a boat moving backewards must stay clear
[7:17] Tim Warrhol: every Fizz skipper has capsized and had another boat ram them!!!!
[7:18] Jane Fossett: smile
[7:18] Dunan Wilder: :)
[7:18] Tim Warrhol: rule 22 states you must stay clear of a capsized boat untill it has regained control!
[7:18] Dunan Wilder: the big difference here is that you don't inuure yourself or others by doing so and rarely damage another ship
[7:18] Dunan Wilder: injure *
[7:19] Tim Warrhol: yes but you still must stay clear of a boat that is capsized
[7:19] joro Aya: me have question
[7:19] Tim Warrhol: yes joro?
[7:19] joro Aya: about a prestart situation
[7:19] Tim Warrhol: ok
[7:19] joro Aya: when a boat has "parked" with it's nose against the wind and it's in the way of another boat
[7:20] joro Aya: what are the rules then?
[7:20] Tim Warrhol: answer is simple....that boat has sailed "head to wind" and is considered to be tacking, until it has resumed a closehauled course
[7:20] joro Aya: is that concidered backing sails?
[7:21] joro Aya: ahh
[7:21] joro Aya: so it has no rights at all
[7:21] Liv Leigh: but in prestart it has no proper course?
[7:21] Tim Warrhol: yes...no rights at all
[7:21] Tim Warrhol: yes liv but still restricted by rule 13
[7:22] joro Aya: Jarral does it a lot. me will protest His ass next time :P
[7:22] Tim Warrhol: so you can luff but not all the way to or corssing head to wind
[7:22] Dunan Wilder: so what does that mean ? can the boat just stay parked ?
[7:22] Tim Warrhol: yes it can...but it has no rights while is in irons
[7:22] Dunan Wilder: that's fine with me :)
[7:22] Jane Fossett: Here is the link to the "EOW Obstruction" issue for later: http://metaversesailing.wordpress.com/2 ... c-11-2007/
[7:22] joro Aya: so any boat heading for it can p[rotest it?
[7:23] Tim Warrhol: depends...you have to give it room and time to resond remember
[7:23] Tim Warrhol: respond i mean
[7:23] Tim Warrhol: ok last but not least and we will continue with questions
[7:23] Tim Warrhol: 31. hitting a mark
[7:23] Liv Leigh: seems tricky.. if you approach it d be most likely on either windward or port
[7:24] Tim Warrhol: in SL we dont really use this rule.
[7:24] Liv Leigh: and you d be in for trouble yourself if it reacts
[7:24] Tim Warrhol: but in races under iSAF you will
[7:24] Tim Warrhol: the penalty for hitting a mark is 1x360
[7:24] Jane Fossett: I never understood eliminating 31.
[7:25] Tim Warrhol: and also important to not that the penalty under ISAF for breaking any other rule is 2x360
[7:25] Liv Leigh: well with the huge bounding box some marks have now
[7:25] Tim Warrhol: this penalty can be changed by the RD or the sailing instruction
[7:25] Tim Warrhol: ye hitting a mark is a big debate in SL
[7:25] joro Aya: 2x360 would be a lot fairer for fast turning boats then just one 360
[7:25] Dunan Wilder: but hitting a mark in SL is already a big penalty in itself, usually it stops you dead in the water or slows you down a lot
[7:26] Quirky Torok: agreed..
[7:26] Tim Warrhol: yes joro and in my fizz series the penalty for breaking a rule will be 2x360
[7:26] Jane Fossett: bigger penalty hitting a navigation buoy in RL
[7:26] Liv Leigh: that was the issue. it started after yuu hit the start mark in the fizz cup in one race
[7:26] Jane Fossett: 'crunch'
[7:26] joro Aya: with sculpty prims on bouys and boats, it's impossible to see if a boat "hits"a mark
[7:26] Liv Leigh: in the finals
[7:26] Tim Warrhol: Dunan....IRL hetting a bouy will sometimes have the same result.
[7:26] Liv Leigh: before we never debated it
[7:26] Dunan Wilder: oh
[7:27] Tim Warrhol: i have once went swimming to clear an anchor line
[7:27] Jane Fossett: grin
[7:27] Quirky Torok: and it means the RD has to be at all bouys when boats are rounding
[7:27] Jane Fossett: quirk? for rule 18 you're there anyway
[7:27] Tim Warrhol: yes if you are sailing using these rules and not RRSSL
[7:27] Yuu Nakamichi: it was debated regularly liv
[7:28] Quirky Torok: i can only be in one place at a time.. with a stretched out fleet its impossible
[7:28] Liv Leigh: but hardly ever to a scale as after that
[7:28] Liv Leigh: and never with any serious intent to change it
[7:28] Yuu Nakamichi: you weren't around for the previous ones
[7:28] Jane Fossett: its up to RD's and regatta oorganizers
[7:28] Dunan Wilder: with the boat touching the mark without visially touching because the collision mesh does not correspont to the spahpe of the boat or buoy, the pnly way to be sure would be to have a script inside the buoy that shout a message when they're touched
[7:28] Liv Leigh: ohh. you must be really old then LMAO
[7:29] Bunnie Mills: [i have to go now : ) but thanks Tim this has been very useful]
[7:29] Dunan Wilder: sorry for the typos... \
[7:29] Jane Fossett: Alan Beresford's new buoys do that
[7:29] Tim Warrhol: well this debate could go on forever! Julia and I discover a bouy script that made the bouy move away from you when you hit it!
[7:29] Jane Fossett: grin
[7:29] Dunan Wilder: :)
[7:30] Dunan Wilder: bye bye bunnie :)
[7:30] Tim Warrhol: quirky you had some questions?
[7:30] Yuu Nakamichi: except that doesn't fix the issue of when they are touched
[7:30] Quirky Torok: yup
[7:30] Quirky Torok: two questions.. first.. these RL rule kind of say you have situational awaremess.. in SL (espcially in the fizz) a skippers view is VERY narrow... do you see some kind of limitations on this effect when makeing decisions as a RD?
[7:30] Yuu Nakamichi: it simply reveals the sculpt mesh of a boat
[7:31] Dunan Wilder: to me it's the same, i don't see anything but what's right in fron of me and i don't dare much caming out for fear of touching other boats by mistake
[7:31] Tim Warrhol: situational awareness is the responsility of the skippers. as a fizz skipper myself i can tell you that i am constantly looking at my minimap and zooming and panning around me. so it is still very possible
[7:31] joro Aya: it's very easy to make a bouy move away when hit. just make it physical and add a script to make it move back to it's position
[7:32] Tim Warrhol: IRL too most situations occur as a result of not looking around before you do something
[7:32] Yuu Nakamichi: making an object physical takes additional server resources
[7:32] Tim Warrhol: its no different in SL
[7:32] Quirky Torok: kk.... good for experianced skippers.... this brings me to my second question
[7:32] Tim Warrhol: ok quriky
[7:32] Quirky Torok: Secondly.. i have done a very brief round robin survey of the 11 audiance members here... half have a basic grasp of the rules.. some are bewildered and befuddled.. are you suggesting we use the rules as they stand in the IASF book?
[7:32] Yuu Nakamichi: and it doesn't move like a would in RL
[7:33] joro Aya: yes, but all boats are already physical anyways, so percentual it would add only a little
[7:33] Jane Fossett: good Q, Quirk
[7:33] Yuu Nakamichi: it's not 'realistic', it's a crutch
[7:33] Tim Warrhol: no...i am introducing the ISAF rulebook as it will be used in my Fizz Summer Series.
[7:33] Quirky Torok: kk
[7:34] Tim Warrhol: However much of this discussion applies to RRSSL as well
[7:34] Quirky Torok: so clubs have the right to use simplified rules
[7:34] Tim Warrhol: of course.
[7:34] Jane Fossett: and we all agree that RD's and Regatta organizers set the rules.... all kinds of races for different skills and interests
[7:34] Quirky Torok: good.. i couldnt contemplate using these rules for club sailing
[7:34] Quirky Torok: it will kill sailing in SL
[7:35] joro Aya: heh, a no-rules-at-all face sometimes could be fun :P
[7:35] joro Aya: **race
[7:35] Dunan Wilder: lol
[7:35] Jane Fossett: smile
[7:35] Tim Warrhol: they really are not much different from the simplified RRSSL
[7:35] Quirky Torok: im being serious.. if a noob sailor doesnt understand the rules they will find something else to do
[7:35] Dunan Wilder: well the rules make the races tactical, but i have to say that part of the rules i don't grasp and msot i don't recognize once i sail
[7:35] Tim Warrhol: but i agree club sailing has a lot of inexperience and its easier to monitor the rules when simplified
[7:36] Jane Fossett: so we have fun races, and try to teach the rules along the way.
[7:36] Quirky Torok: thats dangerous Jane
[7:36] Jane Fossett: gulp
[7:36] Tim Warrhol: yes....or specific series like the Fizz summer series where its understood going in you are under the full rules, and not really intended for begginers
[7:36] Dunan Wilder: i remember that my first fizz cup race i stayed with the sails down until it the countdown was at 0 ^^ didn't know you had to raise sails within a certain time :)
[7:37] joro Aya: we could do what Gemma started doing. explain a certain rule prestart and then implement that rule for that race
[7:37] Quirky Torok: if i was an inexperianced sailor.. and some one told me that i was doing everything wrong.. my self esteem would hit rock bottom
[7:37] joro Aya: that was we will all slowly learn the rules better
[7:37] Quirky Torok: yes!!
[7:37] Quirky Torok: that really works well
[7:38] Moontears Vought: noobs like me do need a foundation so we dont anoy the "serious knows all the rules sailers".
[7:38] Jane Fossett: well i hope we have good RDs, and good instruction... I absolutely agree we encourage sailors.
[7:38] Quirky Torok: i think theres room for beginers workshops on rules..
[7:38] Jane Fossett: yes.
[7:38] Moontears Vought: i did learn a lot today, but i'm scared not enough
[7:38] Quirky Torok: it would have to be structured amoungst the clubs.. and run VERY regularlky
[7:39] Jane Fossett: Tim, this was WONDERFUL.
[7:39] Tim Warrhol: your welcome
[7:39] Quirky Torok: yes.. Tim.. thank you
[7:39] Dunan Wilder: yes, i think that sailing under full rules is good too, usually you'll remember your penalties and try to avoid the same situation next time. But here's the catch : i would like someone to tell me what i should have done to avoid fouling in a given situation, that waoulf be really nice
[7:39] Kei Cioc: thx tim :)
[7:39] Moontears Vought: Thanks, Tim
[7:39] Dunan Wilder: yes, thank you very much tim :)
[7:39] Tim Warrhol: anyother questions....RRSSL or ISAF?
[7:39] Porter Tracy: thank you Tim
[7:39] Tim Warrhol: Yuu I have a starting line question for you aftewards
[7:40] Yuu Nakamichi: sure
[7:40] Quirky Torok: oo a question from Bunnie... [7:02] Bunnie Mills: i would suggest to have practice sessions with the assistance of experts like Tim
[7:40] Dunan Wilder: yes ! :D
[7:40] joro Aya: i think using full isaf is good for big events like cups
[7:40] Dunan Wilder: my vote on that ^^
[7:40] Jane Fossett: yes!!
[7:40] Tim Warrhol: Quirky...this is kind of the intention of the summer series. to introduce this rule set
[7:41] Tim Warrhol: but i would be glad to have some other session
[7:41] Tim Warrhol: sessions
[7:41] Quirky Torok: from a RD perspective organising a very large event coming soon... i would love a list of JUdges that knew these rules inside and out.. so i could call on them to help out
[7:41] Tim Warrhol: i am available!
[7:41] Quirky Torok: woot!! got ya!!!
[7:42] Jane Fossett: haha
[7:42] Tim Warrhol: and the forum would be a good recruiting platform
[7:42] Dunan Wilder: :)
[7:42] Quirky Torok: yes.. i intend to grab a few from there
[7:42] Yuu Nakamichi accepted your inventory offer.
[7:42] joro Aya: i would like to help, but i don't think i understand the rules well enough yet
[7:42] Quirky Torok: its big boats tim.. think you can handle it??? lol
[7:43] Tim Warrhol: ummmm ever umpired 80 boats on a onedesign starting line? think i can handle it!
[7:43] Quirky Torok: lol
[7:43] Quirky Torok: ok.. your hired
[7:43] Tim Warrhol: yuu on the red course....
[7:43] Silber Sands is Offline
[7:44] Tim Warrhol: boats need to pass through the starting line in both directions with the ends of the line acting as a gate
[7:44] Tim Warrhol: how do i set this up
[7:44] Silber Sands is Online
[7:44] Tim Warrhol: i tried 2-way and 3-lap...didnt work
[7:45] Yuu Nakamichi: it depends on what you want to do
[7:45] Tim Warrhol: ok everyone thanks for coming!
User avatar
Tim Warrhol
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:12 pm
Location: Toledo, OH


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron