ROW at start - Windward - Leeward

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ROW at start - Windward - Leeward

Postby Liv Leigh » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:28 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChaAZqti2qI
The start of round 5, group 1, filmed by Odysseus Yiyuan. Your views on what happens at the red mark please. :D
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Re: ROW at start - Windward - Leeward

Postby MarkTwain White » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:47 am

Liv Leigh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChaAZqti2qI
The start of round 5, group 1, filmed by Odysseus Yiyuan. Your views on what happens at the red mark please. :D


Looks like the windward boat at the red mark was barging and thus could have been protested under the windward-leeward rule, rule 11.

Actually had the third boat from the red mark been a tiny bit closer and overlapped, the first two boats could have been protested for barging (since the third boat is the first one actually sailing close hauled). However the third boat was not overlapped at the critical moment, so I only see one instance of barging here.
Last edited by MarkTwain White on Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: ROW at start - Windward - Leeward

Postby MarkTwain White » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:11 am

MarkTwain White wrote:Looks like the windward boat at the red mark was barging.


For a good discussion on barging check out this link:

http://www.teameclipseracing.org/forms/Performance%20Racing%20Tactics%20rules%20at%20starts.pdf
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Postby Bea Woodget » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:48 am

Agree with MTW,

but ... see the picture below....

At position 2, RED’s fault becomes evident. The Preamble to Section C states Rule 18 does not apply at starting marks surrounded by navigable water. RED must keep clear of both BLUE and GREEN (Rule 11). BLUE is entitled to sail as high as it wants to prevent RED from passing between it and the committee boat. All boats must try to avoid a collision that could cause damage (Rule 14). If either BLUE or GREEN are forced to give room to avoid a collision with RED, they should PROTEST, and RED should do a 720-degree penalty turn (or 360 in SL).

However: Although BLUE is entitled to force RED to bear away behind the committee boat, it must avoid a collision in accordance with Rule 14. If a collision with damage occurs, BLUE could be DSQ along with RED. (Note: In SL, Rule 14 would apply with caveats only).

So, Yes, WYC had ROW...and rule 14 is not in use in SL (no "damages"). Is it a reason for WYC to break that rule, changing her course and causing the incident? I don't think so.

If WYC had change her course (evasive) to avoid the contact, then shouted PROTEST, thus the PROTEST could be valid. In this case, WYC changed her course to "close the door" (aggressive) and thus caused the contact. If rule 14 is not in use in SL, it is not a reason to play with, question of "sportmanship". That is the point of view I expressed with the others judges.
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Re: ROW at start - Windward - Leeward

Postby Bea Woodget » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:10 am

MarkTwain White wrote:
MarkTwain White wrote:Looks like the windward boat at the red mark was barging.


For a good discussion on barging check out this link:

http://www.teameclipseracing.org/forms/Performance%20Racing%20Tactics%20rules%20at%20starts.pdf


Thanks for this link Mark, on this pdf, situations 4 and 5 illustrate my point of view (with better words and pictures:) )
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Postby Liv Leigh » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:48 am

From what I see in the video the brown boat held it's line. It is not 'causing the incident', but simply not giving way to a boat barging in. Given that a protest is called by the brown boat, it is rather strange to me that the white one is not disqualified after failing to do a 360 after this incident.

Barging in from windward at start is one of the most common annoyances in SL. I spoke with a number of angry people about this incident. It is really hard to sell this and I wonder if I should be competing in a race series where this is allowed to happen, even when a protest is made. Especially if you consider the amount of paperworks that went into writing down the rules for the event.
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Postby Bea Woodget » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:24 am

Liv Leigh wrote:From what I see in the video the brown boat held it's line. It is not 'causing the incident', but simply not giving way to a boat barging in. Given that a protest is called by the brown boat, it is rather strange to me that the white one is not disqualified after failing to do a 360 after this incident.

Barging in from windward at start is one of the most common annoyances in SL. I spoke with a number of angry people about this incident. It is really hard to sell this and I wonder if I should be competing in a race series where this is allowed to happen, even when a protest is made. Especially if you consider the amount of paperworks that went into writing down the rules for the event.


Read again my comment and have a look on the pdf provided by Mark?
I agree with you on most points, and this is not allowed to happen... in some circunstances.... Look at all....
And about the amount of paperworks, I see more "Coué method" for this event, than a clear and precise way to manage rules and protest (In chat group? while the race? after race? where was the protesting/protested parties after the race? ....). Sorry for that :)
I am confident and proud about the decision applied in this particular case...
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Photos from a different perspective

Postby Chaos Mandelbrot » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:27 am

At about 06:03:16
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Postby Massy Johin » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:18 pm

Bea posted >If WYC had change her course (evasive) to avoid
Bea posted >the contact, then shouted PROTEST, thus the
Bea posted >PROTEST could be valid. In this case,
Bea posted >WYC changed her course to "close the door" (aggressive)

No, no, I didn't intend to close RED's door,

I was simply caring my leeward boat (GREEN), not to hit her, not to obstruct her course and gave her room.
Actually, GREEN boat was approaching the satartline just behind me.

I could have done bear away, but if I did so, I would have hit green boat from wind ward.

I'd like to know how can I do in this situation?
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Postby Bea Woodget » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:27 pm

Massy Johin wrote:I'd like to know how can I do in this situation?


Easy:

1°) Avoid contact (bear away)
2°) Shout PROTEST
3°) If BLUE has to bear away to avoid a collision with RED, it could hit GREEN as a result. In this case, 64.1(c) prevails and BLUE will be exonerated.

=> RED gets penalty, BLUE is exonerated.

64.1(c): PENALTIES and EXONERATIONS:
(c) When as a consequence of breaking a rule a boat has compelled another boat to break a rule, rule 64.1(a) does not apply
to the other boat and she shall be exonerated.
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This is not the answer

Postby Massy Johin » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:37 pm

>>1°) Avoid contact (bear away)

Again, If I did bear away, I would have hit GREEN.

How can I do in this situation?
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I cannot edit my articles

Postby Massy Johin » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:43 pm

>>1°) Avoid contact (bear away)

Again, If I did bear away, I would have hit GREEN.

How can I do in this situation?



OK I understand,
=> RED gets penalty, BLUE is exonerated.

I'll remember this :)
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Postby MarkTwain White » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:16 pm

Can someone tell me why Rule 14 does not seem to apply in competitons like the America's Cup. You watch those skippers in the pre-race manuevering trying their damnest to "touch" the opponents boat and call the protest.
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Postby Jane Fossett » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:39 pm

Hi!
First of all, Round Five is now "officially closed."
The judge's rulings stand.
Rules are important, and we all take them seriously;
Any sailor who feels the judges' rulings are incorrect, unfair, or unevenly applied can - AND SHOULD - request an appeal.
You need to do that at the time of the race, however.
It's an impossible mess if we are racing Round FIVE and a sailor decides to appeal Round TWO.
Having said that, I think this discussion is a very good one.
A nearly identical problem occurred during the Round Four 6pm Start between Schiffsratten and Kazenojin Seiringu, but there was no protest.
I was actually in the process of writing it up as an article this weekend before today's Round Five race occurred.
I now have three videos and two sets of still frames from the 6AM start today.
I'd like to request a few hours so I can review that material before I post an opinion here.
Thanks!
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Postby Liv Leigh » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:29 am

Bea Woodget wrote:where was the protesting/protested parties after the race? ....). Sorry for that :)
I am confident and proud about the decision applied in this particular case...

I was watching this race and not needed at the protest meeting ;)

Basically what my experience is in those races: the moment you bear away you allow the windward boat to physically push you away from the startline completely and windshadow you. You can call the protest then, but then they basically ruined your race still by barging in. If you hold your line and force them to alter course, which in my opinion is the only way to handle a boat that barges in, you get away with less damage.

I really don't see the point of giving way to a boat that is at fault anyways in SL. It is allowing people who have no clue about ROW to push you around the course.

What Joly John did here, is exactly the reason why many experienced sailors are leaving big boat races: they are sick and tired of being pushed around by people who can't tell leeward from windward, starboard from port, have no clue about room at marks etc. If we now go to the point of actually encouraging this kind of behaviour, YES, I see no reason to take those races serious any longer and even bother to show up.
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